new LSA max weight regs

[montanapilot]

I had been hearing that the FAA was going to increase the maximum gross weight for LSA's to above 1320 lbs. My February, 2019 Plane and Pilot arrived today, and they're saying that it's been "leaked to the media" that the max weight will be increased to 3600 lbs. and from 2 seats to 4. Whether or not these particular numbers are accurate, it sounds like there will, in fact, be an increase in gross weight. I've tried, unsuccesfullly, to find the design weight of the Astore. Hopefully, they designed it to carry more than 1320 lbs. Regardless, it is certainly in our interest to begin communications with Tecnam since there's a lot at stake in getting the Astore's gross above 1320.

[LSA Flyer]

The rule making process is going to take several years and the thought is to move away from a set weight standard to performance based regulations. That's great news for GA and terrific news for LSA. However I would not count on a weight increase approval for your (or my Astore). I doubt Tecnam overbuilt the aircraft with an eye to upping the gross weight. I think we have to assume it was designed to be safe when flown, in the performance envelope, with some margin for exceeding ranges. Upping the gross weight, without structural changes, would just eat away at the safety margin. I'd expect when the new regulations are finalized we would see a new model version from Tecnam with structural changes to support higher gross weight and speed. I haven't flown my Astore over gross but I have had the experience in other LSA's and they don't fly or land well loaded up to 1,500 lbs. I just can't imagine Tecnam upping the legacy fleet Astore.

[montanapilot]

Thanks for that, Steve. Your observations and perspective represent why this forum is so valuable. In this case, we're dealing with something that nobody yet understands for sure, we've heard different ideas as to what's going to be implemented and when, so hearing from others adds to our own knowledge base, and that's valuable.

A couple of comments:

My thought is not that Tecnam overbuilt the airplane with an eye toward upping the gross weight. It's that they built it for a higher GW to begin with and then "detuned" it for the US LSA market. When I bought the airplane, I had a very direct conversation with a not-to-be-named executive at Tecnam USA about the gross weight. He told me, very clearly, that the airplane was designed for a significantly higher gross weight and that it was certified in Europe for that higher weight. Good news about that statement (which I caused him to repeat several times so that there would be no misunderstanding) is if it turns out to be true that the airplane was originally designed for a higher GW. Bad news is that given a fairly substantial amount of research, it appears to me that the Astore is certified for the same weight in Europe as it is here. So, what to believe.

2. An example of what I was referring to is what's gone on with the P2008. As you know, it's certified for 1320 lbs. in the US, but I was able to determine that it is, in fact, certified for a significantly higher weight in Europe. Sorry, I don't now remember the exact number, but my recollection was somewhere between 150-200 lbs. Somebody on the forum probably knows what that number is. I just wonder if they would have built the P2008 to be sturdier than the Astore. So, at least for this aircraft, they did design it for a higher GW and then detuned it for the US market.

All of my comments at this point are just really hearsay and opinion, which is all we're likely to get until we learn what's really going on. The only issue that will be determinative is when (if) we someday learn exactly what the engineering parameters were when they designed the Astore, the GW in particular.

You mention "performance based regulations" and that it's great news for GA and terrific news for the LSA market. Could you expand on what your thoughts are about what "performance based" means and why it would be good news for LSA?

Thanks for the reply to my post, Steve, and all the best for a great 2019.

Marshall Friedman

[LSA Flyer]

From what I've read, the requirement for a specific gross weight max limit will be relaxed since it has unfavorable, unintended consequences: fragile landing gear, penalty for adding a chute for example. Why not just retain a "performance box" and let the weight float to fit the best design choice. Minimum stall, Max cruise. Adding four place seating while relaxing the weight and tweaking the box lets a 172 into the LSA world, which seems to be a popular idea. So faster, more capable, SLSA choices with single lever adjustable props would be a great development. Would it hurt our resale values? I think so, but the depreciation rate on the three SLSA planes I've had was pretty steep already. Considering Tecnam's excellent build quality and responsive support here in the States I'd expect the brand to hold up better than most. Give me an adjustable prop and a 100 lb bump in gross and I'd be a happy camper with what I've got; even if it required converting to ELSA. Happy New Year.

[montanapilot]

Given Steve's comments, I decided to find out if what I've been hearing from a couple of people who are involved in the process and what was stated in the Plane and Pilot February issue was accurate. There was also a bit of a misleading statement from Jack Pelton, also noting the increase to 3,600 pounds. So, I've spent some time researching on the internet. There are a lot of articles on the subject. The takeaway:

1. As Steve notes, the passage of any actual rulemaking is well into the future. You will read about a February 19, 2019 date, but that will be, at best, just the start of the process, not the date of any new rules.
2. The 3,600 lb. limit is not only just another number that's being passed around now rather than being a fixed proposal, and there's also no consensus at all as to what that means or what formula would be used to determine gross weights.
3. The new rulemaking has a whole lot more to do with LSA's than simply increasing gross weight, which again, is a maybe yes and maybe no and not clearly defined at this point. It also involves discussing the inclusion of aircraft with forms of power other than internal combustion and additional commmercial uses that would be approved for LSA's and many other items. In other words, there are a whole lot of moving parts, and the FAA has trouble dealing with just one part, let alone multiples.

Unless I'm elected President and able to direct the FAA to immediately come to terms with this issue, we'll likely be boarding our aircraft from our wheelchairs before anything's implemented.

Thanks for piping up, Steve.

[montanapilot]

I was able to find the maximum takeoff weight for the P2008 per the European CS-LSA regs. It's 1,433 lbs. The Tecnam website shows the design empty weight (standard airplane) of the P2008 and the Astore to be equal - 827 lbs.