Tecnam high accident rate

[pv9]

The Tecnam story does not seem be positive:

www.aviationconsumer.com/maintenance/lsa-accident-review-nothing-to-celebrate/#

Is there any data regarding the P2008?

[FormerCirrus]

Nov 22, 2021 16:47:39 GMT pv9 said:

The Tecnam story does not seem be positive:

www.aviationconsumer.com/maintenance/lsa-accident-review-nothing-to-celebrate/#

Is there any data regarding the P2008?

Regarding the P2008, a poor safety record would show up in the insurance rates.

When I bought and insured my 2018 P2008 earlier this year, I was surprised how reasonable the rates were.

[ergo1]

Hi Pv9
Interesting topic!
So time ago I tried going into the NTSB database and looking for P2008 accidents. As a side note, I’m a worrier by nature. Anyway if memory serves me, after poking through the database, I couldn’t find any fatalities involving the P2008 and only a couple of minor accidents. If you can find P2008 accidents, please let me know!
Thank you
Eric

[grantopperman]

By the way, this is an old story—came out quite a while back. I think maybe Bertorelli is reposting on the slow Thanksgiving week!

[grantopperman]

By the way, this is an old story—came out quite a while back. I think maybe Bertorelli is reposting on the slow Thanksgiving week!

[pv9]

There are quite a few P2008 accidents:
aviation-safety.net/wikibase/type/P208

[grantopperman]

I see only four in there from the US. I’m not so interested in what happened in China.

Of the four, no serious injuries or fatalities. One runway incursion pilot error, one animal on runway, one loss of power on takeoff, one collapsed landing gear on landing.

I don’t ever want to minimize and want to be data driven in my conclusions, but that seems pretty good to me.

Of course, just due to the nature of LSA flying there’s going to be less fatal / serious stuff. The fleet flies VFR, not many long cross countries, etc.

[pv9]

Nov 22, 2021 22:04:24 GMT grantopperman said:

I see only four in there from the US. I’m not so interested in what happened in China.

Of the four, no serious injuries or fatalities. One runway incursion pilot error, one animal on runway, one loss of power on takeoff, one collapsed landing gear on landing.

I don’t ever want to minimize and want to be data driven in my conclusions, but that seems pretty good to me.

Of course, just due to the nature of LSA flying there’s going to be less fatal / serious stuff. The fleet flies VFR, not many long cross countries, etc.

I don't know how many P2008s are registered and flying in the US. Is there a way to get this data?

[grantopperman]

More research on the four US P2008 accidents:

April 16, 2016: Burgaw, NC. Pilot reported that the avionics "went out." Unable to restart. Forced landing without injury. NTSB found that the avionics were working normally, including the ALT OUT annunciation. Voltage began at 12.6 and gradually declined over the flight. Determination was that the plane was operating only on battery power during the flight and likely cause was not activating the "alternator" switch at the beginning of the flight.

July 19, 2016: Warrenton, VA. Pilot unaware of helicopter traffic on runway prior to departure. Began his takeoff roll but rejected the takeoff. During the abort, he departed the left side of the runway. Pilot had only 7 hours in type. Determination was pilot's decision to takeoff with other traffic on the runway. Contributing factor was his improper use of toe brakes. He had just transitioned from an airplane with a handbrake.

July 17, 2017: Lone Rock, WI. Student pilot doing stop-and-goes. Became distracted on short final by a deer on the runway. Determination was pilot’s improper landing flare, which resulted in a bounced landing and subsequent loss of directional control and runway excursion during the aborted landing. Contributing to the improper landing flare was the student’s distraction by a deer running across the runway.

September 2, 2020: Ocala, FL. Landing gear collapse on landing he airplane sustained unreported damage and the sole pilot onboard was not injured during the incident. I did not find an NTSB report on this but have to assume it was a really hard, bounced landing.

[pv9]

Nov 22, 2021 22:35:07 GMT grantopperman said:

More research on the four US P2008 accidents:

April 16, 2016: Burgaw, NC. Pilot reported that the avionics "went out." Unable to restart. Forced landing without injury. NTSB found that the avionics were working normally, including the ALT OUT annunciation. Voltage began at 12.6 and gradually declined over the flight. Determination was that the plane was operating only on battery power during the flight and likely cause was not activating the "alternator" switch at the beginning of the flight.

July 19, 2016: Warrenton, VA. Pilot unaware of helicopter traffic on runway prior to departure. Began his takeoff roll but rejected the takeoff. During the abort, he departed the left side of the runway. Pilot had only 7 hours in type. Determination was pilot's decision to takeoff with other traffic on the runway. Contributing factor was his improper use of toe brakes. He had just transitioned from an airplane with a handbrake.

July 17, 2017: Lone Rock, WI. Student pilot doing stop-and-goes. Became distracted on short final by a deer on the runway. Determination was pilot’s improper landing flare, which resulted in a bounced landing and subsequent loss of directional control and runway excursion during the aborted landing. Contributing to the improper landing flare was the student’s distraction by a deer running across the runway.

September 2, 2020: Ocala, FL. Landing gear collapse on landing he airplane sustained unreported damage and the sole pilot onboard was not injured during the incident. I did not find an NTSB report on this but have to assume it was a really hard, bounced landing.

This is a great analysis. Very few US accidents. I wonder how many P2008s are out there in the US?

[Glenn]

The FAA website shows there are about 70 registered in the U.S. Eight of those are in Sebring awaiting delivery.
 
ARKANSAS - 1

CALIFORNIA - 3

DELAWARE - 4

FLORIDA - 14

GEORGIA - 3

HAWAII - 1

IDAHO - 1

ILLINOIS - 4

INDIANA - 2

IOWA - 1

KANSAS - 1

KENTUCKY - 1

MICHIGAN - 1

MINNESOTA - 1

MONTANA - 3

NEVADA - 1

NEW YORK - 1

OKLAHOMA - 2

OREGON - 1

PENNSYLVANIA - 3

SOUTH DAKOTA - 2

TENNESSEE - 2

TEXAS - 5

VIRGINIA - 4

WASHINGTON - 1

WISCONSIN - 4

[pv9]

Not a lot of data, but it is promising nonetheless. I wonder if the poorer Tecnam accident history is the older LSAs, the P92, P2002 series.

[pv9]

Across all countries, I found 142 P92 incidents, 100 P2002 incidents, 36 P2008 incidents and just 4 Astore incidents.

[grantopperman]

Super interesting, although you have to take into account:

- Statistical anomalies due to small fleet size. I'm guessing that's why the Astore has so few reported incidents

- Severity of accidents, which is why I did the analysis above. I'm less worried about runway excursions than stall spins!

- Varying country standards, which is why I focused on US. I have no idea what training and regulation is like in overseas environments

- Reporting standards: If I make a forced landing in Bosnia and no one is there to see it, did it really happen?

It's so hard, maybe impossible, to get to real information for our planes. I do think that the 2008 I fly has better, less-LSA-like handling than most in the category.

[WinP]

With such low numbers it's hard to draw too many conclusions. I am new to the LSA and Tecnam world, having just sold my Cirrus and actively considering whether to buy a P2008. One thing I will offer by way of observation is that in terms of teaching and preaching safety the Tecnam world suffers by way of comparison with the Cirrus world. This is largely a function of numbers. There are so many Cirri flying, and so many Cirrus pilots, that it's easy to focus on safety in a very significant and well-organized way. The Cirrus pilots forum is first and foremost a forum for sharing best safety practices. A number of years ago when it was obvious that Cirrus pilots were dying in situations where they would have lived had they pulled the chute, the Cirrus pilots association made a concerted push -- online, at all of the many training weekends they hold during the year, through the network of Cirrus certified instructors, etc -- to educate Cirrus pilots about when to use the chute. It worked. The fatal crash numbers came down. And also the same thing happened when a spate of landing accidents occurred. Though all of the many available channels Cirrus pilots were educated about proper landing speeds. Cirrus now provides at no cost three days of transition training to anyone who buys a used Cirrus. Through these and so many other ways a culture of safety has been created, fostered and propagated. So coming from that environment the LSA world looks a bit like the "Wild West." It's just smaller, newer, and more fragmented. If I end up buying a P2008 (alternatives are buying nothing or the Flight Design F2 which I'm also going to test fly in the coming weeks) I'll certainly do my part to try to bring a bit of that culture to this forum. Interestingly three of the other posters in this thread are former Cirrus owners who migrated to the P2008, all of whom have been generous with their time in counseling me on my decision.