P2008 Final Approach & Short Final

[John]

Aviation Consumer Article - January 2017 issue reviewed the Tecnam Astore.  Here is an excerpt from that article:

"When flaps are deployed—electric, continuously positionable Fowler types—only minor trim adjustment (or none) is necessary. The published full-flap stall speed is 38 knots and the stall announces itself with an unmistakable burble before evolving into a mild parachute mode. For landings, we used approach speeds in the mid-50-knot range, but we suspect more familiarly with the airplane would make 49 knots practical. That’s 1.3 Vso."

I have not flown the Astore, so I don't know its landing characteristics.  I've owned my P2008 for several weeks and I'm still looking for the perfect landing.  I thought I'd reach out to you more experienced P2008 flyers and see what techniques and airspeeds you recommend.  Based on the Aviation Consumer Article, my approach speeds my be to fast. 

[Glenn]

John,

By the way, I'm still looking for the perfect landing too.  From a previous post of yours, I think it's been a while since you last flew an approach and landing in your F33A but maybe, just maybe, some of your Bonanza techniques or habits are working against you?  It has been my experience (watching, teaching, and flying with a lot of pilots) about 90% of pilots fly final way too fast and that especially applies to every Bonanza pilot I've ever watched or evaluated during a part 61 BFR.  Are guilty as well?  

Remember my advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.  So beware!!  Gusty x-winds are an exception, but my advice is to really make an effort at flying no faster than 1.3 and remember the P2008 lands flat compared to your Bonanza.  Don't give up in the flare and touch down fast.  I like to fly final at 55 indicated with full flaps or 60 with no flaps.  About 50 ft AGL I go to idle and I flare just a foot or two above the runway and hold it off.  This usually results in me touching down super slow with no bouncing as it gradually settles to the runway.  Go up to altitude and get comfortable flying at 55.  These planes are slippery and don't slow down once in ground effect like the average general aviation plane so I always seem to float further than I want.  The runway in the airpark where I live is 2,600 feet which is still way, way more than needed but I'm still trying to perfect my accuracy landings.  My wife and I have had our P2008 since May so you might think I've had enough opportunity to fine tune my technique but our Tecnam is actually my wife's plane and she hogs the flying time.  

Good luck and let me know if any of this helps.

Glenn

[John]

Glenn,

Guilty: I tended to fly my Bonanza too fast on final. Yep, I ate up a lot of runway.

Thanks for sharing your procedure. That makes a lot of sense. Can you comment on the P2008 maximum flap extension speeds? I guess I'm spoiled by the higher flap extension speeds of the F33A (and the braking advantage of dropping landing gear for that matter).

Out of town for a week. Can't wait to get back and fly with these new techniques.

Thanks,
John

[Cluemeister]

John,

Are you looking for max speed with flaps at 15 degrees and 35 degrees?

Edit:  Found POH references 35 degrees for landing

[John]

VFE Speeds.
I see that the P2008 maximum flap extension speed for 15-degree flaps is 80-knots.
The maximum flap extension speed for 35-degrees is 68-knots.
Given all the discussion about Tecnam shoe horning the P2008 and the Astore aircraft into the United States SLSA category, I can't help but wonder what the real world VFE speeds are for this aircraft.
Isn't there a country where Tecnam sells the P2008 with a variable pitch prop? What's that POH say about V Speeds?
I'm just sayin . . . . .

[Glenn]

Feb 17, 2017 23:39:09 GMT John said:

Glenn,

Can you comment on the P2008 maximum flap extension speeds? I guess I'm spoiled by the higher flap extension speeds of the F33A (and the braking advantage of dropping landing gear for that matter).

Thanks,
John

Yep, the Tecnams are very slippery and consequently you have to plan in advance during downwind.  You can't wait until the last minute.   I remember the first time I did a straight-in approach at my home field.  It was a perfect example of not knowing the aircraft.  I was too high and waited way too long to slow down.  I lowered half flaps at 90 IAS, leveled off, then full flaps, and I could not get it to slow down, I could not salvage the approach to land.   I had to go around.  I have 2600 feet total and I couldn't have even touched down at the far end of the runway.  So ever since then I get on speed EARLY.  I can always add power but I don't have speed brakes, dad gummit.  I remember as my wife sat in her left seat saying: "So you didn't like that approach, huh.  Good to see you make a mistake once in a while."  The biggest reason for full flaps is for the drag (my opinion).  Try some no flaps and you'll see the difference.

Glenn

[Glenn]

I can't get that POH page from the JC European model to display properly or I'd attach it but I can email it if interested.

Stall Speed: throttle idle, out of ground effect, most forward CG, at 630 kg.
(about 1,386 pounds)

zero bank, zero flaps: 48 KIAS

zero bank, T/O flaps: 43 KIAS

zero bank, full flaps: 40 KIAS

Obviously, as the aircraft weight decreases, the stall speed get slower.

Glenn

[buzz]

Hi John,

Just wondering where you are getting your flap extension speeds? My POH says Vfe 66KCAS/68KIAS Under remarks it says: Never exceed this speed for any given flap setting. It also describes the white arc as being 44-68 KIAS. Under the Operating Limitations it says 68KCAS/71KIAS (as you can see as with the fuel information sometimes even Tecnams info isn't the same a few pages away) Regardless I see no information in my POH that allows any flap extension above 71 KIAS. When I was getting my intro to my plane at Tecnam I was told to be good with my flap management no flaps above 71KIAS. Don't get me wrong I would love to be able to start dropping flaps at 80 but neither my training or my POH back that up. Maybe you have a different edition of POH? Mine is Ed1 rev2-19/01/2015.

Thanks

Buzz

[Cluemeister]

Buzz,

Tecnam sent out a letter with a new higher max speed for first notch of flaps. I'll look for it...

[Cluemeister]

Found it.

Authorization to use Take Off Flaps.pdf (163.35 KB)

[Ed Midgley]

There is a letter from Tecnam authorizing a little less then half flaps anywhere in the green airspeed arc. I'm not sure of the exact degrees. This makes it much easier to get slowed down.
Mark Gregor can get you a copy. I attached mine to my POH.
Ed

[Ed Midgley]

I guess we all jumped on that one at once.

[buzz]

Well that is good new guys thanks. You would think that a POH that comes out 7 months after this revision would reflect this change.

[buzz]

Well that is good new guys thanks. You would think that a POH that comes out 7 months after this revision would reflect this change.

[John]

Thanks Glenn. Again, great information. I did pretty much the same thing. Guilty I suppose of relying too much on the seat of my pants and not the published numbers.

Greetings Buzz,

My POH is the same edition. Those values are the same in my POH. My aircraft is a 2016 - P2008. I am, however, the second owner. The aircraft came with a great checklist booklet for the Tecnam 2008. Perhaps the prior owner purchased this from another source.

Note POH 2.1.2 White Arc 44-68 Flap Operating Range . . . . . "upper limit is maximum speed permissible with full flaps"

It would seem that if 35-degree full flaps are permissible at 68KIAS, then 15-degree flaps would be permissible at something faster, say 80KIAS.
I don't know the answer.