Post by scottlee on May 23, 2017 21:56:23 GMT
Hello everyone!
I took possession of my new P2008 May 17th and couldn't be happier. I am a former 2010 Flight Design CTLS owner who "traded up." I've been active on the CTflier forum and attended their Page AZ fly-in October 2016. During my two years of owning my CTLS I flew over 5,000 nm cross-country and some of it over the Rockies. I purchased the CTLS as my training aircraft and had lots of fun.
Last week Mark Gregor needed to be in Sebring last week for a business meeting which was going to postpone delivery of my new plane. So I suggested to Mark that I fly to Sebring (1,000 nm) as part of the transition training and then solo home. So my first round trip totaled 2,000 nm.
I thought you folks might enjoy hearing my reasons for upgrading and pro/con's of the Tecnam P2008 vs the Flight Design CTLS. The CTLS is a fine plane and I hope this forum becomes the kind of resource that CTLS owners enjoy on CTlfier.com.
The first question people ask me is why did I upgrade? The short answer is comfort. I purchased the CTLS with the hope that my wife and I would fly cross-country to visit family and friends. However after finishing my training and getting my sport pilot license I discovered that the CTLS composite wings are stiff and the ride can be pretty rough in turbulence. So I started looking around at other planes and after a demo in a turbo P2008 I was sold. So I sold my CT up in order to purchase a new P2008.
I chose a new P2008 because I wanted to keep the parachute and get the Rotax 914 turbo. I watched the used market for a long time and only saw one configured as I wanted and it sold very quickly. So buying a new plane was my only choice.
From the start, things that impressed me about the Tecnam P2008 were:
The quietness of the cabin after engine start. After engine start you can talk with your passenger before you put on a noise cancelling headset. In the CT you have the yell over the engine, even at idle. I was told the reason for the low noise level is several things, the low compression ratio of the Rotax 914 vs the 912 and the firewall being metal.
The ability of the seats to recline and move far back and the design of the stick - The CT has a much narrower range of seat adjustment and my passengers had trouble trying to stretch out without hitting the rudder petals, even with the seat as far back as it goes. Getting in a CT requires you to swing your leg over the stick while pulling the stick to the side. It sounds silly but people are reluctant to move the CT's stick out of the way, even after I tell them it's ok. Getting in the P2008 doesn't require any gymnastics. Passengers can move the Tecnam seat all the way to the back and have lots of leg room to relax during flight. To get in, you simply put your head in and slide onto the seat and swing your legs in. The ability to recline also contributes to comfort.
Having the luggage stored behind the seats. In the CT the baggage compartment can only be accessed from outside the plane. So if you need something in flight, it's time to land. In the Tecnam, you can reach back and recline your passengers seat so they can pivot to access items. (Think cooler with treats) The CT has some nice storage under your feet, which I miss. But the total size of the storage is much bigger in the P2008.
Seat comfort. Having flown both planes on long cross-country trips, the Tecnam 2008 seats are much better for long periods. The CT seats are leather, which I prefer since I'm a klutz and spill things.
Smooth flight in turbulent conditions. As part of a demo, Mark Gregor was kind enough to arrange to transport me from my home airport to Esterville Aviation, to pick up my CTLS after an annual. Esterville is three hours from my home airport. the weather was stormy and we had to divert around a thunderstorm. I got to fly the P2008 out and then picked up my CT and flew it home. What a difference! We certainly had some bumps on the way out, (it's an airplane!) but the trip back in my CT was exhausting. The Tecnam handles rough skies without making you feel beat up at the end.
Stick feel, ease of landing and crosswind performance. I have over 300 landings in my CTLS and the only way to describe it is "spooky." On the CTflier forum it has been stated that if you can land a CT, you can land anything. I have no doubt this is true as it is very challenging. One of the things I grew to dislike is the CT's centering springs on the stick. If you are landing cross-controlled and holding ailerons into the wind, you are fighting the springs the whole time. I've landed the CT in 20 kts gusting 40 on a short runway and wouldn't wish that experience on anyone. By comparison, the balanced loading of the Tecnam P2008's stick means you feel the forces on the controls without being masked by springs. It is easy to hold ailerons in a cross wind and the plane is much more stable in gusts. I did a number of landings as part of my transition training and in a short time started making consistently great landings.
Rudder pressure. One of the habits I'm working to break is using too much rudder pressure in the P2008 on take-off. In the CT, you have to exert significant right rudder to fight the left turning tendency. The CT has nosewheel steering, so while you are on the runway you exert some pressure to keep the plane traveling straight. But, the minute you are wheels up in a CT you MUST put in a lot of right rudder or the plane will strongly pull left. You must maintain that pressure all the way up to altitude. The CT has a rudder trim wheel, which helps on a long climb to high altitude, otherwise it is very tiring to hold right rudder for 10-15 minutes. But you better be ready to take that trim back out when you throttle back! The Tecnam P2008 requires the lightest of touches to counteract the left turning tendency. In cruise you typically don't have to apply rudder pressure in either plane.
Superior avionics. Comparing the Garming G3X touch to the Dynon Skyviews is just not fair. It's like a fight between a prizefighter and a 90 lb weakling, it's just not fair. In my opinion, one of the mistakes Flight Design made is to dumb down the Skyview system. Dynon's Skyview is much more flexible and capable than what FD allowed - my CT was stuck on a much older version. (This might be fixed in newer aircraft, I don't know. So keep in mind that I'm comparing a 2010 CTLS model with a 2017 Tecnam.) Having a fully integrated Garmin system makes everything work together. This is such a big subject I'm only going to touch on a couple things. The CT config had a Garmin 796, a TruTrak autopilot and dual Skyviews. The autopilot got instructions from the 796. So you can set headings and altitude on the Skyview and all you are doing is turning knobs without changing anything. The TruTrak tended to rock the wings in "hold altitude" mode, the Garmin is solid. The CT didn't have the ability to climb automatically to altitude, nor calculate and follow a VNAV descent profile. I love that the radio shows shows the name of the station. (KMLI Approach, or tower or ground!) If you don't own a plane with a G3X touch, go watch the Garmin videos - it's simply amazing.
Superior climb rate with 914 turbo. Using the turbo is a wonderful experience. During takeoff it really pushes you back in your seat. Climbing to altitude is so much faster. Usually if I'm increasing altitude in cruise, it is to get out of turbulence and you want to minimize your climb time.
Easy engine access. One of the pre-flight items in the CT is to remove the cowling before every flight to inspect the engine, wires, battery, fluid levels. You can check the oil and coolant level without removing the cowling, but nothing else. Because I was the sole owner and kept my CT in a hanger, I typically pulled the cowling once a month. This is because taking it off without another set of hands is very challenging. Being able to turn two screws on each side of the P2008 and open the engine compartment is an enormous time saver, eliminates a source of frustration and a real improvement in safety as I'm not tempted to skip a step.
Superior landing gear and break lines. The CT has composite landing gear and if you drop it it (which I did early on) you will break the legs. I have it from an authority that Flight Design sells a lot of legs! The design of the P2008 nose wheel and landing gear is metal. Plus the CT's brake lines are plastic, not braided metal.
Differential braking verses nose wheel steering. This is probably personal preference because my initial flight training was in a Cessna 172, but I prefer toe brakes. When you do a run up in a CT, you have your left hand crossed over to hold the parking brake while you increase throttle with your right hand - clumsy. Further, you use your rudder petals to steer the nose so your turn radius in a CT is large. For fun I held the right toe brake down and throttled up and spun a full circle in the Tecnam. This is great for tight spaces.
Better ventilation. Because the CTLS has cantilevered wings, there are several opening in the passenger compartment to facilitate removal of the wings and inspect connectors. This causes a non-stop breeze and it is very cold in the winter. Because the Tecnam support struts are external, you don't have that problem. Plus the round air vents in the Tecnam allow very precise control of the air flow. In the CT the air vent is either open or closed. The Tecnam heater puts out much more heat than the CT.
Ok, so I love my new plane, but I have some gripes.
Fueling - You must have a ladder to access the fuel cap. I could reach the CT's fuel cap from the ground. I use five gallon Tuff Jug's to put premium unleaded auto gas in my plane. The Tecnam has a very thin metal structure surrounding the cap and I dare not support the jugs on the plane. This makes self fueling the Tecnam much harder.
Heater - It's either 100% or nothing - Flying back at 8,500 the outside air temp was 48 degrees and I was chilly. So I turned on the heater in my P2008. Wow, great heater but I was turning it on or off which is a hassle. I miss my CT's adjustable lever for fine control.
Seat recline switch - First thing I did was apply too much pressure and snap the internal cable. This is just a bad design.
Cigarette lighter circuit breaker - The circuit breaker limit is two amps and an iPad draws 2.5 amps when charging. I could charge my iPhone, but plugging in the iPad pops the breaker. Since I use Foreflight this is bad.
I hope you find this information helpful.
Scott
I took possession of my new P2008 May 17th and couldn't be happier. I am a former 2010 Flight Design CTLS owner who "traded up." I've been active on the CTflier forum and attended their Page AZ fly-in October 2016. During my two years of owning my CTLS I flew over 5,000 nm cross-country and some of it over the Rockies. I purchased the CTLS as my training aircraft and had lots of fun.
Last week Mark Gregor needed to be in Sebring last week for a business meeting which was going to postpone delivery of my new plane. So I suggested to Mark that I fly to Sebring (1,000 nm) as part of the transition training and then solo home. So my first round trip totaled 2,000 nm.
I thought you folks might enjoy hearing my reasons for upgrading and pro/con's of the Tecnam P2008 vs the Flight Design CTLS. The CTLS is a fine plane and I hope this forum becomes the kind of resource that CTLS owners enjoy on CTlfier.com.
The first question people ask me is why did I upgrade? The short answer is comfort. I purchased the CTLS with the hope that my wife and I would fly cross-country to visit family and friends. However after finishing my training and getting my sport pilot license I discovered that the CTLS composite wings are stiff and the ride can be pretty rough in turbulence. So I started looking around at other planes and after a demo in a turbo P2008 I was sold. So I sold my CT up in order to purchase a new P2008.
I chose a new P2008 because I wanted to keep the parachute and get the Rotax 914 turbo. I watched the used market for a long time and only saw one configured as I wanted and it sold very quickly. So buying a new plane was my only choice.
From the start, things that impressed me about the Tecnam P2008 were:
The quietness of the cabin after engine start. After engine start you can talk with your passenger before you put on a noise cancelling headset. In the CT you have the yell over the engine, even at idle. I was told the reason for the low noise level is several things, the low compression ratio of the Rotax 914 vs the 912 and the firewall being metal.
The ability of the seats to recline and move far back and the design of the stick - The CT has a much narrower range of seat adjustment and my passengers had trouble trying to stretch out without hitting the rudder petals, even with the seat as far back as it goes. Getting in a CT requires you to swing your leg over the stick while pulling the stick to the side. It sounds silly but people are reluctant to move the CT's stick out of the way, even after I tell them it's ok. Getting in the P2008 doesn't require any gymnastics. Passengers can move the Tecnam seat all the way to the back and have lots of leg room to relax during flight. To get in, you simply put your head in and slide onto the seat and swing your legs in. The ability to recline also contributes to comfort.
Having the luggage stored behind the seats. In the CT the baggage compartment can only be accessed from outside the plane. So if you need something in flight, it's time to land. In the Tecnam, you can reach back and recline your passengers seat so they can pivot to access items. (Think cooler with treats) The CT has some nice storage under your feet, which I miss. But the total size of the storage is much bigger in the P2008.
Seat comfort. Having flown both planes on long cross-country trips, the Tecnam 2008 seats are much better for long periods. The CT seats are leather, which I prefer since I'm a klutz and spill things.
Smooth flight in turbulent conditions. As part of a demo, Mark Gregor was kind enough to arrange to transport me from my home airport to Esterville Aviation, to pick up my CTLS after an annual. Esterville is three hours from my home airport. the weather was stormy and we had to divert around a thunderstorm. I got to fly the P2008 out and then picked up my CT and flew it home. What a difference! We certainly had some bumps on the way out, (it's an airplane!) but the trip back in my CT was exhausting. The Tecnam handles rough skies without making you feel beat up at the end.
Stick feel, ease of landing and crosswind performance. I have over 300 landings in my CTLS and the only way to describe it is "spooky." On the CTflier forum it has been stated that if you can land a CT, you can land anything. I have no doubt this is true as it is very challenging. One of the things I grew to dislike is the CT's centering springs on the stick. If you are landing cross-controlled and holding ailerons into the wind, you are fighting the springs the whole time. I've landed the CT in 20 kts gusting 40 on a short runway and wouldn't wish that experience on anyone. By comparison, the balanced loading of the Tecnam P2008's stick means you feel the forces on the controls without being masked by springs. It is easy to hold ailerons in a cross wind and the plane is much more stable in gusts. I did a number of landings as part of my transition training and in a short time started making consistently great landings.
Rudder pressure. One of the habits I'm working to break is using too much rudder pressure in the P2008 on take-off. In the CT, you have to exert significant right rudder to fight the left turning tendency. The CT has nosewheel steering, so while you are on the runway you exert some pressure to keep the plane traveling straight. But, the minute you are wheels up in a CT you MUST put in a lot of right rudder or the plane will strongly pull left. You must maintain that pressure all the way up to altitude. The CT has a rudder trim wheel, which helps on a long climb to high altitude, otherwise it is very tiring to hold right rudder for 10-15 minutes. But you better be ready to take that trim back out when you throttle back! The Tecnam P2008 requires the lightest of touches to counteract the left turning tendency. In cruise you typically don't have to apply rudder pressure in either plane.
Superior avionics. Comparing the Garming G3X touch to the Dynon Skyviews is just not fair. It's like a fight between a prizefighter and a 90 lb weakling, it's just not fair. In my opinion, one of the mistakes Flight Design made is to dumb down the Skyview system. Dynon's Skyview is much more flexible and capable than what FD allowed - my CT was stuck on a much older version. (This might be fixed in newer aircraft, I don't know. So keep in mind that I'm comparing a 2010 CTLS model with a 2017 Tecnam.) Having a fully integrated Garmin system makes everything work together. This is such a big subject I'm only going to touch on a couple things. The CT config had a Garmin 796, a TruTrak autopilot and dual Skyviews. The autopilot got instructions from the 796. So you can set headings and altitude on the Skyview and all you are doing is turning knobs without changing anything. The TruTrak tended to rock the wings in "hold altitude" mode, the Garmin is solid. The CT didn't have the ability to climb automatically to altitude, nor calculate and follow a VNAV descent profile. I love that the radio shows shows the name of the station. (KMLI Approach, or tower or ground!) If you don't own a plane with a G3X touch, go watch the Garmin videos - it's simply amazing.
Superior climb rate with 914 turbo. Using the turbo is a wonderful experience. During takeoff it really pushes you back in your seat. Climbing to altitude is so much faster. Usually if I'm increasing altitude in cruise, it is to get out of turbulence and you want to minimize your climb time.
Easy engine access. One of the pre-flight items in the CT is to remove the cowling before every flight to inspect the engine, wires, battery, fluid levels. You can check the oil and coolant level without removing the cowling, but nothing else. Because I was the sole owner and kept my CT in a hanger, I typically pulled the cowling once a month. This is because taking it off without another set of hands is very challenging. Being able to turn two screws on each side of the P2008 and open the engine compartment is an enormous time saver, eliminates a source of frustration and a real improvement in safety as I'm not tempted to skip a step.
Superior landing gear and break lines. The CT has composite landing gear and if you drop it it (which I did early on) you will break the legs. I have it from an authority that Flight Design sells a lot of legs! The design of the P2008 nose wheel and landing gear is metal. Plus the CT's brake lines are plastic, not braided metal.
Differential braking verses nose wheel steering. This is probably personal preference because my initial flight training was in a Cessna 172, but I prefer toe brakes. When you do a run up in a CT, you have your left hand crossed over to hold the parking brake while you increase throttle with your right hand - clumsy. Further, you use your rudder petals to steer the nose so your turn radius in a CT is large. For fun I held the right toe brake down and throttled up and spun a full circle in the Tecnam. This is great for tight spaces.
Better ventilation. Because the CTLS has cantilevered wings, there are several opening in the passenger compartment to facilitate removal of the wings and inspect connectors. This causes a non-stop breeze and it is very cold in the winter. Because the Tecnam support struts are external, you don't have that problem. Plus the round air vents in the Tecnam allow very precise control of the air flow. In the CT the air vent is either open or closed. The Tecnam heater puts out much more heat than the CT.
Ok, so I love my new plane, but I have some gripes.
Fueling - You must have a ladder to access the fuel cap. I could reach the CT's fuel cap from the ground. I use five gallon Tuff Jug's to put premium unleaded auto gas in my plane. The Tecnam has a very thin metal structure surrounding the cap and I dare not support the jugs on the plane. This makes self fueling the Tecnam much harder.
Heater - It's either 100% or nothing - Flying back at 8,500 the outside air temp was 48 degrees and I was chilly. So I turned on the heater in my P2008. Wow, great heater but I was turning it on or off which is a hassle. I miss my CT's adjustable lever for fine control.
Seat recline switch - First thing I did was apply too much pressure and snap the internal cable. This is just a bad design.
Cigarette lighter circuit breaker - The circuit breaker limit is two amps and an iPad draws 2.5 amps when charging. I could charge my iPhone, but plugging in the iPad pops the breaker. Since I use Foreflight this is bad.
I hope you find this information helpful.
Scott
