P2008 or Astore? Las Vegas HEAT 115 degrees

[ATP Time Builders]

I am looking for pilots who know what "HOT" is and have a canopy aircraft that operates daily in the desert.
I know that high wings lack airflow on ground and some say the open canopy is best as long as you wear a hat.

So, I would like to hear if you think the Astore is a better plane than the P2008 for Las Vegas in June-August?

Thanks in advance.

[ChiMike]

Two considerations: the Astore is a bubble canopy so it will ‘greenhouse’ in any location for internal cabin temp—the P2008 will also heat up but nothing like the Astore unless the windscreen is directly facing the sun. The second consideration is density altitude. The P2008 has better fully loaded capabilities at 1320 GWTO than the Astore for the simple reason that the P2008 is a certified airplane in Europe at ~1450lbs while the Astore is 600 kg both US and Europe. If you get a P2008 with the 914turbo you will find a performance capability that you’ll be amazed by. ]
I have a 2015 P2008t and I’ve not had any issues with density altitude at temp or load with 2 pax and full fuel. I fly in Oklahoma and Texas in 90-100+ summer heat.


But the Astore is sexier, sportier, and fun to fly as well! I guess it comes down to mission and baking in Vegas in a non-air conditioned airplane with either alternative until you get airborne.

[buzz]

I'm in the Seattle area so you can take my comments about heat and sun with that into account. When I was deciding on which plane I wanted, I went to Airventure and Sebring to evaluate them. At both locations it was hot and sunny. Two things I found that I didn't like about bubble canopies is how hot they get and how the sun makes it harder is see the instruments. The 2008 has a good size windscreen so it gets pretty good sun inside when facing the sun. I like the wing and rear fuselage blocking the sun from the side and behind. I admit to being a sun and heat wimp. The more sun I can block from getting in the plane the happier I am. But in reality as has been discussed by so many it gets down to your personal preferences.

[ATP Time Builders]

Nov 25, 2019 6:01:15 GMT ChiMike said:

Two considerations: the Astore is a bubble canopy so it will ‘greenhouse’ in any location for internal cabin temp—the P2008 will also heat up but nothing like the Astore unless the windscreen is directly facing the sun. The second consideration is density altitude. The P2008 has better fully loaded capabilities at 1320 GWTO than the Astore for the simple reason that the P2008 is a certified airplane in Europe at ~1450lbs while the Astore is 600 kg both US and Europe. If you get a P2008 with the 914turbo you will find a performance capability that you’ll be amazed by. ]
I have a 2015 P2008t and I’ve not had any issues with density altitude at temp or load with 2 pax and full fuel. I fly in Oklahoma and Texas in 90-100+ summer heat.


But the Astore is sexier, sportier, and fun to fly as well! I guess it comes down to mission and baking in Vegas in a non-air conditioned airplane with either alternative until you get airborne.

"‘greenhouse’" Makes a lot of sense. I am all for sexy but not when it comes to money. My goal is to have happy pilots. The performance is so close but additional load will allow for chute so that is a major factor as well.
Thanks for your feedback.

[ATP Time Builders]

Nov 25, 2019 6:41:36 GMT buzz said:

I'm in the Seattle area so you can take my comments about heat and sun with that into account. When I was deciding on which plane I wanted, I went to Airventure and Sebring to evaluate them. At both locations it was hot and sunny. Two things I found that I didn't like about bubble canopies is how hot they get and how the sun makes it harder is see the instruments. The 2008 has a good size windscreen so it gets pretty good sun inside when facing the sun. I like the wing and rear fuselage blocking the sun from the side and behind. I admit to being a sun and heat wimp. The more sun I can block from getting in the plane the happier I am. But in reality as has been discussed by so many it gets down to your personal preferences.

"harder is see the instruments" — Another good feedback. We now fly with all of these new glass panels and sun on them is a real problem. 

"your personal preferences" — Unfortunately, not my personal plane. I have to consider how our customers will like our fleet. I noticed that a mid size flight school in FL uses the Astore. The good news is whatever the choice, it will be a good one as either aircraft will do the job. Let's face it, that school will not swap out their fleet because students are not using sunblock "joking".

Thanks for your feedback. Glad you chimed in.

[jetcat3]

The P2008 is definitely the better choice in a warm and sunny climate. After being in the P2008 and the Sportcruiser in Dallas during the summer there’s a tremendous difference when the sun is off the majority of your body.

[ATP Time Builders]

Nov 25, 2019 22:33:01 GMT jetcat3 said:

The P2008 is definitely the better choice in a warm and sunny climate. After being in the P2008 and the Sportcruiser in Dallas during the summer there’s a tremendous difference when the sun is off the majority of your body.

Thanks for your feedback.

[ash31mi]

I fly an Astore in Arizona and the bubble canopy certainly doesn't help in the high summer temperatures; I wear a cap and use movable slap-on sun shades to moderate direct impact of the sun. I used to own a Husky which was definitely more comfortable in summer, and can say overall the P2008 would be a better choice if keeping the sun off the back of your neck is an important issue.

I chose the Astore for looks and immediate availability, and don't regret it - summer in our part of the world is just going to mean a hot cockpit whatever. Fly early and late - in summer I often fly after dark to avoid the direct heat.

[ATP Time Builders]

Thanks for the feedback!

I too love the looks. The Astore has a few advantages over the P2008 and Sport Cruiser.
The pricing is not that much different when you are comparing Apples to Apples.

Here is a chart I put together to help me decide. I think that the sun/canopy issue is not a deal breaker for this decision so now it comes down to what will be most loved by our clients.

I like those moveable shades too. I am thinking that some pre-cut 3M sun blocker could be applied to imitate a moon roof of sorts. It would block vision at night but so would a permanent ceiling.

I really like the slide back canopy to allow lots of air on the ground. I also like the low wing access for re-fueling. No Ladders and we will be self service frequently.

I am waiting on final pricing which will probably sway my final decision.

[jetcat3]

No offense, but I’d quickly take the Sportcruiser off of your list if you’re going to be operating them in Vegas. They are a nightmare for students in the warmer months because Czech Sport Aircraft refuses to change the cowling. I would consider Bristell as they are much lighter and have the cowling improvements. Empty weight on most SportCruiser’s are in the 890 pound range with a chute and full glass. The Bristell similarly equipped weighs in at 810 pounds which will help in a training environment. Just my two cents!

[ATP Time Builders]

Nov 27, 2019 20:23:27 GMT jetcat3 said:

No offense, but I’d quickly take the Sportcruiser off of your list if you’re going to be operating them in Vegas. They are a nightmare for students in the warmer months because Czech Sport Aircraft refuses to change the cowling. I would consider Bristell as they are much lighter and have the cowling improvements. Empty weight on most SportCruiser’s are in the 890 pound range with a chute and full glass. The Bristell similarly equipped weighs in at 810 pounds which will help in a training environment. Just my two cents!

Thanks for your feedback. Sounds, like a personal experience. I will add the Bristell to that list if the airframe is at least 10,000 hours. It so happens that the flight school I ref is flying the Sport Cruiser. Maybe it is more about cowling than engine.

[jetcat3]

Don’t get me wrong, I do love the SportCruiser despite its shortcomings, but it’s not suitable as is for a flight school. After 1,000 hours instructing in them I don’t miss the temperature issues! It’s very frustrating for us and our students who are solo in that environment. That’s the last thing they should be worrying about!

Yes, it’s 100% cowling design. It’s a shame because it gives Rotax a bad name when it’s all on Czech Sport Aircraft to make a simple modification that they refuse to do. I’ve held short in the middle of the summer in Dallas with a 914 turbo P2008 for 30 minutes with oil and coolant temperatures right at 200 F. You could sit there all day and never have an issue! A Lycoming or Continental is a much bigger concern keeping cool in a hot climate than a Rotax. If you put an O-200 in the SportCruiser cowling it would overheat in fifteen minutes.

[LSA Flyer]

I own both a Sportcruiser and Astore. My pick for a Vegas Flight School would be a P2008. The high wing just makes great sense for reducing sun load. The ease of entry accommodates larger students and older clients. The Tecnam landing gear is much stronger than the Sportcruiser and there is no danger of a canopy unlatch crash in the high wing. Sport Cruisers also have vapor lock issues when holding for long periods in high heat. Both are great personal planes even though the Sport Cruiser has a couple of real gotchas. I'd also vote Tecnam for long term parts and service; it's got a much bigger investment here in the States.

[ATP Time Builders]

Nov 27, 2019 23:43:31 GMT LSA Flyer said:

I own both a Sportcruiser and Astore. My pick for a Vegas Flight School would be a P2008. The high wing just makes great sense for reducing sun load. The ease of entry accommodates larger students and older clients. The Tecnam landing gear is much stronger than the Sportcruiser and there is no danger of a canopy unlatch crash in the high wing. Sport Cruisers also have vapor lock issues when holding for long periods in high heat. Both are great personal planes even though the Sport Cruiser has a couple of real gotchas. I'd also vote Tecnam for long term parts and service; it's got a much bigger investment here in the States.

Thanks for your feedback. Very helpful.

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[cole505]

Hi ATP,

I am just over the mountain east of KHND at KBVU I have have owned a P-2008 the last five years I was flying the 912 ULS and definitely have to factor in Density Altitude and temperatures. In the Summer it was fly very early or late and really had to watch fuel load with a passenger. KBVU has a 5000ft runway on a hot day full fuel and passenger I need over 3000ft to get into the air....the high wing is the only way to go for training here in the desert! I have flown the Sling a low wing 912 fuel injected airplane extremely fun to fly. I rented it from a local flight school in Carson KCXP City the bubble canopy was extremely hot! It had a retractable shade that helped, but still had the cook factor. I did this before I purchased the P-2008 that was all the convincing I needed...... I have since bought a New P-2008 with the Turbo, all the years I flew the 912 I had wished I had bought the P-2008 Turbo equipped. And Wow! What an extreme difference in performance! I absolutely recommend the P-2008 Turbo it’s the only way to go for flying here in the Las Vegas heat. I hope this helps you decide which way to go with your flt training, I think the Astore is a very beautiful airplane it’s ideal for flying back east or in the northern states hope to fly one someday........... I also hope to meet you one day heck, we are only 13 miles apart. I like to flying into KHND for lunch or breakfast maybe we can meet there one day lunch is on me........

Ray & Lucy 😎✈️👍🏻🇺🇸😊✅