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Post by montanapilot on Oct 16, 2019 14:23:05 GMT
Next project, now that I've received the transducer LOA this morning - the cracking windshields. The issue is ridiculous. At best, it's created a situation that's expensive and time consuming to deal with, not to mention downtime on the airplane until it's fixed. At worst, it could be extremely dangerous.
If this was happening to Cessna 172's, nobody would have to talk to the factory. Cessna would be all over a fix, if only for liability reasons if not concern for owners of their products. If it was happening to Van's aircraft, I'd suspect that Van's would be dealing with it as a top priority.
As we know, this is not going to happen with Tecnam. Nevertheless, it needs to be dealt with. Every time I go up, I wonder if I'm going to come back with a crack and have to make that 1,300 mile trip to Minnesota again to have it fixed. I don't even want to think about having to deal with a situation like Cole 505 did, but it's always a possibility.
Yesterday, I began a process that will hopefully get Tecnam to recognize that they have a problem, come up with a solution, and deal with it responsibly. Any responsible aircraft manufacturer would do this as a matter of course. These windshields are either too flimsy, the supporting structure is inadequate, or the adhesive system could be too rigid. It could also be none of the above, but something else. Regardless, the cause needs to be determined and a fix implemented.
I'm going to stay on this one until we no longer face either a significant expense or be placed into a dangerous situation. Cole 505's situation was downright scary, and thank goodness it didn't have a different result.
It's not right.
I will post my progress with this project as it moves forward. I'll be having a conversation with somebody today that will help in determining how to move this process forward.
Stay tuned.
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Post by cole505 on Oct 16, 2019 22:39:04 GMT
Wow Ray! Thanks goodness that windshield held! I’m very curious to hear how Tecnam responds to this latest event. Do you think it’s related more to a windscreen material defect or to stresses placed on it by the installation/design? Hi Toni, I truly believe it’s temperature related, not stress or the fuselage twisting....... Because most of the cracks happened when I pulled the airplane from the hanger. And the rest inflight when ascending and descending hot to cold, cold to hot never while maneuvering or stalling the airplane. Yes, I truly hope Tecnam does the right thing and address this issue! All three windshields did the exact same thing. I really do not get it either why Tecnam does not jump on this issue. I mean come on it does not make since I have been pleading with this company going on five years! To assist me....... they say I bumped or hit the windshield and caused the cracks! They will take absolutely no action its not there problem it’s me damaging the windshields....... is this completely LUDICROUS! Or what! |
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Post by cole505 on Oct 16, 2019 22:41:30 GMT
Ray, After seeing your pictures, I agree that the cracks seem to be from stress. I think blaming everyone's cracks on the manufacturer would be too coincidental so it may be time to start considering that the airframe around the windshield is flexing and causing the stress. Does that sound reasonable? I have no engineering expertise but I'd bet our fuselages flex more than if they'd been made of riveted aluminum. It seems simple enough: find the cause and then find a fix that addresses the cause. And as someone has already stated, the windshield is probably too thin. If the thickness was increased, just how much weight would it add? 3, 5, or as much as 10 pounds? BWTHDIK. Glenn Hi Glenn, I truly believe it’s temperature related, not stress or the fuselage twisting....... Because most of the cracks happened when I pulled the airplane from the hanger. And the rest inflight when ascending and descending hot to cold, cold to hot never while maneuvering or stalling the airplane. Yes, I truly hope Tecnam does the right thing and address this issue! All three windshields did the exact same thing. I really do not get it either why Tecnam does not jump on this issue. I mean come on it does not make since I have been pleading with this company going on five years! To assist me....... they say I bumped or hit the windshield and caused the cracks! They will take absolutely no action its not there problem it’s me damaging the windshields....... is this completely LUDICROUS! Or what! I really believe if they would make them just a little thicker it would make a world of difference..... seriously we can’t reinforce the fuselage, that would add to much weight! I think a couple of millimeters thickness would be the easiest fix....... I can’t see that adding more that 8ozs to a pound maybe.... I really think that would be the way to go! |
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Post by Glenn on Oct 17, 2019 0:36:07 GMT
Be it stress, fuselage flexing, or temperature vaiation, it is unacceptable to have this many windshields cracking.
Glenn
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Post by cole505 on Oct 17, 2019 3:52:44 GMT
Hi All,
There is another member ( He said half way around the world ) that made a post to this problem, He is having the exact same problem we are having. There may be even more out there in other country’s we do not even know about! You can bet that Tecnam
Knows about them all and is doing nothing ! How really sad! I will bet that if new potential customers knew about this it would defiantly hurt there sales...... you can bet they would be looking at other manufactures !!!
For an Airplane to buy!
Ray & Lucy
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Post by montanapilot on Oct 17, 2019 13:52:00 GMT
Ray - do you have any kind of contact information for that person, even his "forum name" if he's been on the forum?
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Post by cole505 on Oct 17, 2019 22:30:41 GMT
Hi Marshall,
No I do not....... he just mentioned he was on the other side of the world.......
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Post by montanapilot on Oct 18, 2019 4:06:17 GMT
Whitey- somebody in your neighborhood?
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bones
New Member
Posts: 2 
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Post by bones on Oct 18, 2019 16:25:44 GMT
View AttachmentHi Guy's I have a 2012 ser# 051 P-2008 the original factory windshield cracked in three different places, it was replaced under warranty ......... That windshield cracked in three places several months later......... In May-2016 I replaced it again so far it's perfect......... In case any of you have this problem an have to have yours replaced ....... Make very sure you round the edges, an trim it to fit if you don't an the edge contacts the edge of the fuselage it will crack again... I spent about 40 hours replacing mine ...... It is one of the most maintenance intensive projects you will ever do! Let me know if you need help I have the answers.. Here are some pictures of the project...... |
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Post by montanapilot on Oct 18, 2019 16:39:45 GMT
I've begun the process to determine what, if anything, we can do to induce the factory to deal with the windshield cracking issue.
Among the experienced people with whom I spoke, the general consensus is that the basic problem is very likely to be that the windshields are simply too thin in comparision with other makes and models, but that's still to be determined.
I spoke with the person at EAA who is in charge of LSA activities. He referred me to an FAA maintenance inspector with whom he works very closely on this type of thing. That person is in charge of LSA for the FAA and is the one who deals with all of the factories, etc. This person was, to say the least, sympathetic. We had a long conversation, and he was extremely helpful with guidance as to what we could consider doing to have this problem corrected. He also said that the FAA is really the only party who has the leverage with manufacturers to deal with this and that he's willing to play hardball, depending upon what I'm going to discuss below.
In my line of business, I always need to be thinking about the unintended consequences of any actions that we take, and it's no different here. I thought of one, and I asked the FAA person about it. The question was "is it possible that the end result of the process could be that you could get Tecnam to understand that there is a problem and agree to deal with it. Then, is it possible that their solution could be to send out an SB requiring everybody to replace the windshields in Astores and P2008s within a certain amount of time, and that, for example, they will pay for the windshields but not the installation?" He said that not only is this a possibility, but that they could even say that they won't even cover the cost of the windshields but that they still have to be replaced. Therefore, what we would have accomplished would be to have helped the few of us who have this problem and then costing everybody else who doesn't have the problem a few thousand dollars. Does he think that the latter (not even paying for the windshield) is a strong possibility? Probably not, but he definitely did not discount the potential problem and definitely agreed that it could go that way. We also discussed that the people who haven't yet had the problem might still be willing to spend the money to protect themselves, but that will be up to the group as a whole to decide.
He and I both decided that the first step in this process will be to determine exactly the scope of the problem. He repeatedly said that "strength in numbers is your friend". So, it's really important that we first find out the size and scope, and I'm doing that via this survey.
If you've had a windshield cracking problem, please advise me re email to pittspilot1@gmail.com. Please include the date that it cracked, under what conditions (in flight, parked, etc.) aircraft type, year of manufacture, and if you have any insight as to why your particular problem occurred (thermal stress, etc.). I've found that some of the earlier windshields had holes drilled in them that compromised the structural integrity but that the factory discontinued doing that.
Once I find out just how many windshields have cracked, I will report to this forum and we can decide, as a group, what to do. I will not take any action on my own.
Also, the names and details of anybody who emails me will be seen only by me and will be strictly confidential.
I was not going to be quite so aggressive with this issue until Cole had his problem. Up until then it was an inconvenience and an expense. However, in seeing his post and in speaking with him, we're no longer talking about inconvenience and expense. His incident created an extremely dangerous situation. Inconvenience and expense we can live with. Risk to bodily harm takes things to quite a different level.
Again, I am not going to take any action on my own. Once I have the results of the survey, I will publish them on the forum and then we all, as a group, can decide how we want to deal with this. I would propose that we not spend much time right now discussing the pros and cons of taking any action until we determine just how large this problem is. If the problem turns out to be quite limited, we might decide to leave it alone. If it's major, we might decide otherwise. Regardless, until we have that input, I do not think that we'll have the perspective that we'll need to decide what to do. Again, you have my committment that I will not take any action on my own - it will be a decision of the entire group.
Best to everybody for a great weekend.
Marshall Friedman (Montanapilot)
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Post by montanapilot on Oct 18, 2019 16:51:26 GMT
P.S. If you have had a crack and send me an e-mail, please also include the location of the crack, the size, and if it opened up as it did on Cole's or if it cracked but did not create an opening, as on mine.
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Post by Ed Midgley on Oct 18, 2019 22:56:03 GMT
I’ve seen 3/8th thick Bonanza windshields crack. It’s usually pressure points around the edges that cause the cracks.
That said I would like to have a thicker windshield. Lexan is bullet proof and won’t crack but it’s not good optically and scratches are not repairable.
Ed
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Post by cole505 on Oct 19, 2019 2:44:07 GMT
Hi Ed,
I wish I could have Tecnam make one custom for my airplane made of Lexan........ According to Tecnam I am the ONLY one out of all Tecnam aircraft ever manufactured since 1947 to have any problems with my windshield ? Tecnam Italy thinks I must be bumping or hitting my windshield
And causing it to Crack? Hard to believe that is there position on this matter.......... The really sad thing is two windshields were installed by Tecnam one straight out of the factory and one under warranty when the first one cracked prior to me owning this airplane both of them cracked to ........Go figure........ I was really hoping Tecnam would step up and do
the right thing at a minimum at least send me a windshield and materials to install it my self. I spent about two grand on my last one and it looks like if I want continue to fly I need to fork out another two grand! There are no words to describe my frustration on this matter!
Ray & Lucy
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Post by MarkGregor on Oct 23, 2019 21:29:07 GMT
Possibly we are getting a bit ahead of ourselves.
I've been around since the first P2008s were produced. I know all the early serial number P2008 windshields cracked because of the two tiny mounting holes in the top of the windshield would get water in them and freeze and then subsequently crack. Many of the broken windshields mentioned in this thread are these early model P2008s. The factory made corrections and all were all replaced under warranty to my knowledge.
Coles windshield falls into this category. His plane was my demo when it cracked the first time. The service center who replaced it did not do what I would call a quality job but I admit it isn't an easy job and not a job for a beginner. It was sold to a customer shortly thereafter. I was not surprised to hear it cracked again shortly after. Possibly some of the early replacement windshields had these small mounting holes in also causing the second windshield to crack but I don't remember.
Cole purchased his plane with the windshield cracked and replaced it himself. I'm sure he did an excellent and through job but it cracked again. I am not aware of any other Tecnam LSA windshields that have repeatedly cracked and can say the majority of Tecnam LSA windshields have never cracked.
The first Astore canopies had a one piece canopy. All of them were replaced due to cracking but since the new style canopy came out I'm not aware of any further failures. Montana Pilots windshield is the first Astore I'm aware of that cracked under unknown circumstances. I do know of others but they were hit by something.
I agree the windshield and window material seems pretty thin. Possibly a thicker or different material is needed but I cant say for sure as I'm only aware four windshields/windows that have cracked for no apparent reason. Likely I've missed a few but when you consider the total number of Tecnam aircraft in the country its still a pretty small number.
A broken windshield is not pleasant and a pain to get repaired so not trying to minimize the situation in any way. If we see continued problems it will need to be addressed.
Mark G
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Post by whitey on Oct 24, 2019 5:14:25 GMT
G’day Marshall
I am not aware of any cracked windshield issues in Oz
By the way. well done on finally getting the fuel flow LOA
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